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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
    
Portland OR
 | | 09/25/2008 10:54 PM |
| | Who are they? Why are they horrible? And what can we do to fix em? | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/25/2008 11:11 PM |
| Vlaakith- 15dmg!?!, one use "paralyisis", low def, low hp, low atts, subpar champ rating and powers... Umm hello! She's the Lich Queen and is 79pts! 15 hp, a +2 blanket to att, +5dmg to basic att, and a recharge conditon for doom touch please.
Hellcat- I see dmg potential and potential hp... Conceal doesn't protect as much anymore and invis is almost useless in the age of bursts. Give em more hp and +1att at least.
Centaur warhulk- blah! Nothing special at all.
There are a few others but for the most part this is a very playable set. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 09/26/2008 12:03 AM |
| I'm also disappointed with Vlaakith. At 70 odd points it's just not Skirmish worthy. Hellcat needs conceal 11 instead of 6 and then maybe it'll be worth t's 43 points.
Don't get me started on the War hulk - very disappointed.
But otherwise very very pleased with the rest of the restats. | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/28/2008 3:08 PM |
| | ok everyone... Don't be passified by all the goodness; we have let em know what to. Hangs if we want em all to be decent. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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OhGodtheRats
Warrior
188 Posts
| | 09/28/2008 5:13 PM |
| I won't doom anything to the Dud pile until I've seen it in action (I saw the Hellcat Rock yesterday afternoon for instance) but I do have one that qualifies.
Gnoll Barbarian. Yeah, he's not a rare so fewer people care, but man, when you cost 3 points more than the Gnoll from DoDung, are only marginally better (+1 to hit, +5 hp) but have a limitation on who you can attack if multiple targets present themselves....I'd rather take the other Gnoll and a rat.
-jared
PS: Vlaa was one of the few All-Stars that saddened me. So I'm with you, but I've had months to process that sad. You're right of course. | | | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/29/2008 10:51 AM |
| I think with 10 more hp, +5 DMG basic att, and recharge doom touch when an adjecent helpless figure is destroyed would probably make her good enough. As is Vlaakith is nothing nothing nothing. I qualifiedwith her 2 years ago when people overlooked her. No one is overlooking her now, she just isn't up to snuff.
Hellcat has grown on me but I think it's defenses are still to low for a 43pt piece. The possible DMg is nice but if you don't get that 80dmg pounce off (using a total of 69pts and 3 figs) you'renot going to get your points out of the figure. 15hp would go a long long way to making it totally viable.
Missed the Gnoll barb. Yah he ain't great. Another piece that is still at least playable and probably great in the right circumstances.
One thing I've noticed is if you only consider bloodwar after rotation in a few months many become very viable but a few will get hurt pretty bad too (no more super pounces from the hellcat for example). | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
512 Posts
| | 09/29/2008 3:51 PM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 09/29/2008 10:51 AM
One thing I've noticed is if you only consider bloodwar after rotation in a few months many become very viable but a few will get hurt pretty bad too (no more super pounces from the hellcat for example).
Actually - set rotation doesn't affect Bloodwar at all since it will never be legal in Standard play (it's Vintage only). The same will be true for all the older sets that get restatted as well.
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A Proud Gelatinous Dude
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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tyngfumv
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 09/29/2008 8:34 PM |
| | you know what pissed me off the spawns the bluespawn is good but the messed up my greenspawn and red hand wizzard the green is now green only which is dumb as hell cause it limites his usess and the red hand is only blue and nolonger a champion so you can't use a tiamat disiple with her chilldren WTF!!!!!!!! so i am verry upset that they have messed it up for me i was waitin to use my spawn warband when this set came out but no they messed that one up didn't they | | | |
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The_Entropic_Wizard
Sneak
81 Posts
St Paul, MN
| | 09/30/2008 1:32 AM |
| One thing that kind of irked me about the new Blood Wars is that they removed almost all the 'minor' champions/commanders: we lost the Harmonium Guard, Free Leauge Ranger, Red Hand War Sorcerer, and the Doomguard. For the most part, it's a trifling thing, as they were all for the most part fairly small potatoes. But it is sometime handy to have that backup champ, just in case.
Other than that... I'm really damned happy with this set. Except that Centaur War Hulk.... ick. I can think of MANY better ways to spend 58 points. Well, there are the All Star letdowns (Vlaakith and the Horned Devil *sigh*).
And has anyone noticed that the Mezzoloth is now the Mezzodemon? | |
VINDICATED Champion of the Kruthik Hivemaster! (DW 50/60)
Adorable?? You wouldn't know 'adorable' if it ripped your throat out with it's teeth!! | |
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OhGodtheRats
Warrior
188 Posts
| | 09/30/2008 2:45 AM |
| Hey Entropic...hold on though. The Harmonium Guard, Red Hand Sorcerer, and Doomguard did keep their champion-like abilities....though instead of it being a Champion power they can do it all the time. The Harmonium Guard grants AC/Def to everyone like he did before, the Red Hand Hobgoblin can ignore allies with his spells, and the Doom Guard grants a bonus to allies nearby which I think is similar to the old rules. I will admit the Free League Ranger lost his +2 to allies, but he still fills the support commander role he did in the old game as well.
I mean, you're right, they're not champions now, but they still have most of their commander effects.
In other news: I totally didn't realize how good the Free League Ranger was. Comparing a lot of guys in his cost range, he's crazy accurate and at distance sight? Half the time he can hit AC 30? Classy. | | | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/30/2008 9:38 AM |
| free leagueranger is def atwlh in the stud pile.
Hadn't thought about the non rotation for restats... Too bad!
The horned devilis an excellent example of a dud as well.
I'm guessing we'll see spawn building somehow in the future if they choose to keep them coming.
I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of figures getting "champion powers" without being champions. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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tyngfumv
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 09/30/2008 9:13 PM |
| | i think they should have gave them some other power as a champion of like one or somethin | | | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2723 Posts
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OhGodtheRats
Warrior
188 Posts
| | 10/01/2008 1:30 AM |
| Posted By Sean-Khan on 10/01/2008 12:55 AM
Or any hope for Vlaakith or Centaur either? Again cool pieces not making it... Vlaakith might be good if you knew opponent doesn't have undead.
Oh crap. Didn't even think about that part....always go caught up on her stats. Screw worrying about just Undead....just hope your opponent doesn't bring any Dragons to either. Man, never noticed she buffs the enemy too. Cleric of Sune got beef for buffing up one keyword across the board, Vlaa buffing 3 different once...gah.
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Sirohk
Commander
3930 Posts
USA
| | 10/02/2008 3:33 AM |
| Bloodwar duds (pieces I'm dissappointed with):
Hellcat (needed Conceal 11)
Vlaakith (lost too many special abilities / powers)
Solar
Centaur Warhulk
FGFP (needed Cleave)
Horned Devil
Pit Fiend (for 105 cost, should have had two Fireballs)
Most of these are All Stars that were not restatted with the others.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 10/02/2008 3:22 PM |
| | so does anyone have a super compelling reason why allstars couldn't be restated with thier set? The one I would expect to hear is confusion over multiple stats... But since restats are online only the usual defense of "what about the players who aren't online" is pretty well nullified (or close enough). All All-star pieces should be playable! What's another restat? | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
512 Posts
| | 10/05/2008 1:15 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 10/02/2008 3:33 AM Bloodwar duds (pieces I'm dissappointed with): Hellcat (needed Conceal 11) Vlaakith (lost too many special abilities / powers) Solar Centaur Warhulk FGFP (needed Cleave) Horned Devil Pit Fiend (for 105 cost, should have had two Fireballs) Most of these are All Stars that were not restatted with the others. 
Kinda makes me happy that the Xendrik Champion was not selected as an all-star. On the other hand, it's sad that my Duergar Champions will never see play again.
In some sense, I think the designers may have intentionally been more cautious with the re-stat of All-Stars since they are legal in Standard (for the time being, anyway) while the rest of Bloodwar is not. If, for instance, the all-stars were all very aggressively costed then some new players may have been turned off the game since many of the all-stars are difficult and expensive to come by.
I'd love to see them restatted for Vintage-only including the suggestions listed above, but I don't think they have any inclination or incentive to do so. | |
A Proud Gelatinous Dude
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 10/05/2008 7:07 PM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 09/29/2008 10:51 AM
One thing I've noticed is if you only consider bloodwar after rotation in a few months many become very viable but a few will get hurt pretty bad too (no more super pounces from the hellcat for example).
We do know that all standard figures are also legal in vintage, right?
So super-pounce away, my friend....
(Except that kitty can't see a WEW. Doh! coulda been even better....) | |
Let it be. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 10/07/2008 10:45 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 10/02/2008 3:22 PM
so does anyone have a super compelling reason why allstars couldn't be restated with thier set? The one I would expect to hear is confusion over multiple stats... But since restats are online only the usual defense of "what about the players who aren't online" is pretty well nullified (or close enough). All All-star pieces should be playable! What's another restat?
Who gets to decide what gets restatted? Who does the restatting? Who gets to decide the rerestats are good enough? Lord_rock? sienar? 63.56332% of the online community?
Why stop with the All-Stars? What if a rerestat is determined later to be not good enough by the determiner of what needs to be rerestatted? Do you then rererestat? At what point is the effort to value ratio exceeded?
I'll be very curious to see what % of All-Stars are played versus what % of Blood War. By all appearances, Blood War came out nearly 100% playable. It'll be interesting to see if more of it is played more than any other set. If that ends up being not the case, I'd say that is strong evidence that rerestatting would be largely a waste of effort and not worth the potential confusion of having different official cards. It's easy to say "this card is really official" on the newer one, but how do you communicate to all "this other card used to be official, but is now no longer official"?
Will this please all those people that complained about the cost of printing the cards the first time around? Will it please them more to not have to print again or have "playable" stats for all (All-Star) figures? | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 10/07/2008 1:06 PM |
| | luckily no one person isin charge of restating. My problem is based purely on my own experience with the game and it tells me that there are pieces that we pay for that could be better and some are not. Why wouldn't we take every reasonable oppertunity to fix those pieces? Restatting a piece with every other figure from it's set is a reasonable way of fixing a piece. All I want is a better more playable game where I get the most for my money... Don't you? | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 10/07/2008 1:06 PM |
| | luckily no one person isin charge of restating. My problem is based purely on my own experience with the game and it tells me that there are pieces that we pay for that could be better and some are not. Why wouldn't we take every reasonable oppertunity to fix those pieces? Restatting a piece with every other figure from it's set is a reasonable way of fixing a piece. All I want is a better more playable game where I get the most for my money... Don't you? | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 10/08/2008 6:40 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 10/07/2008 1:06 PM
luckily no one person isin charge of restating. My problem is based purely on my own experience with the game and it tells me that there are pieces that we pay for that could be better and some are not. Why wouldn't we take every reasonable oppertunity to fix those pieces? Restatting a piece with every other figure from it's set is a reasonable way of fixing a piece. All I want is a better more playable game where I get the most for my money... Don't you?
Of course I want the best game for my money. But you have two assumptions here that I'm not sure I can get behind.
1) You assume you know that a piece should be better. What you don't know is if a piece is designed for a format you're not doing - Limited, Epic, 100, Standard, Vintage, whatever. Do you also know which pieces were designed for Johnny, Timmy, or Spike? If you are a Spike, you may have a hard time knowing the proper balance of a piece designed for Johnny. And when I say you, it can refer to you, to me, to whatever individual or team designated to determine which pieces "should have been made better". Getting the community to like the changes would likely be just as difficult as finding a valid method to determine what needs changing. Just because you, myself, or a team of Top Men think they have the answer, does not mean most of the people will be mostly pleased.
2) You're also assuming that if the, say 10%, figures that should have been made better do get made better, more variety will be available and more figures will be played. They have all sorts of data from Magic that shows that really isn't the case. As I said above, I'm really curious to see how much Blood War gets used in relation to other sets (after the initial "ooh, shiny" phase where everybody wants to try their new toys). It seems the consensus is Blood War has the highest percent of playable figures. I'm interested to see if it ends up with the highest percent of played figues. If that ends up being not true, it's a strong case against fixing, as more playable figures did not equate to more figures played. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 10/08/2008 4:34 PM |
| 1} you assume I am wrong
2} you assume apples are oranges
I do assume that I know there are pieces in 200pt standard, limited, vintage, and casual play that need fixing to see use in any format. I have limited experience with 100 and epic unless a set is 100pt or epic specific. Before the change to 2.0 I qualified for Gen-con with a rogue band and was a few more games away from top 200 in the world for limited. I placed 10th (top half) at the very first qualified for 2.0and 3rd in my last 2.0 qualifier which is no longer good enough. I have a ton of experience as both a competative and casual player and a decent track record around the boards. I am a bit arrogant about this and do think my opinion matters, which is why I bother posting daily.
Duds deserve to be fixed so that everyone can play the game they want to play with whatever piece they want. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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