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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10357 Posts
    
United States
 | | 07/23/2008 7:10 AM |
| There are quite a few nice Champion powers available in the current meta, and yet few people are talking about the Mind Flayer Lich bands (or, worse, dual Mind Flayer Lich bands).
So, I thought I'd open this up for discussion.
I suppose if there were something like the Skullcleave Warrior in Underdark, this would be a no-brainer, but, as there isn't, I wonder if there are other Underdark bands people are considering, that will be guided by a Mind Flayer Lich (or two).
What are you thinking?
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 07/23/2008 7:32 AM |
| My NOST, my NOST, my precious NOST!!!
:-p
But srsly, ther is no bodyguard in purple to soak up the Skullcleave's damage...
There is this Shield Guardian, but Merchant Guard is just much much better. | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 07/23/2008 8:27 AM |
| I've had the same thought about trying to come up with a viable MFL band to screw with all the champion 2's that are finding favor.
I'm having a hard time of it.
With dual MFL's I'm having a hard time finding my way around LShD for the 3rd threat. The other option I kind of like (in theory) is the emerald orb wizard to help clear the screeners. However I think the emerald will still struggle a bit with the tomebound bands because the tomebound player is likely to let you attack the arcanist, which robs you the opportunity to easily clear the bg (and that's if you can see it). Also the orb wizard operates on 'nearest' and there are many places to hide on temple :(
In essence, for the champs, if you want a viable MFL band you have to find a way to (at the least) contend for ranged dominance on flooded and have a means of overcoming hidden ranged threats on temple. Certainly the MFL's can get off their duff and move out there, but you are losing their most powerful weapon for a couple rounds.
So this is what i've come up with so far:
MFL x 2
Large Shadow
- standard fare
MFL
Orb Wizard
Orcus priest
- I'm just not sure if its enough. And the fodder stinks.
I suppose another concept you could strive for is finding something that works with the delver sgt. If you could find 3 total viable ranged threats in your band, you could have the flexibility of firing off 3 attacks to gain access to a key target or having that 3rd champ power negated for the times you find yourself vs. a champ 4 or 2 champ 2's.
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10357 Posts
United States
| | 07/23/2008 12:37 PM |
| Mind Flayer Lich
Tsucora Quori
Kalashtar Bodyguard
That's an expensive way of getting a bodyguard into Underdark. Shield Guardian is very different, and much cheaper.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Tooninki
Warrior
272 Posts
Finland
| | 07/23/2008 1:37 PM |
| | But if you use Shield guardian you lose its stored spell power, and theres like 2 arcane allys in underdark (drow wand mage & Drider sorcerer)... | |
Life is...
Vindicated AtG shot: Shadow Giant (Death Titan)
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OhGodtheRats
174 Posts
| | 07/23/2008 9:27 PM |
| With all the Tomebound Arcanist doom, I'm surprised the Beholder Lich hasn't been mentioned. With his/her/its immunity to confusion and its ability to heal between 20 - 40 Hit points on an Undead ally, it could be worth a shot.
The Blood Golem also comes to mind but Immunity to confusion or not, it's just too slow. Still, with Resist Damage All 5....ah. Maybe with a KuoToa Whip to speed it along on the first turn. I don't know. But I did want to share the idea since a lot of people are brainstorming how to counter the Tome of Doom. | | | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3844 Posts
USA
| | 07/24/2008 3:17 AM |
| At least MFL warabnds can now get to 10 activations with the Rav Dire Rat.Â
I'm still thinking this as a base might be decent:
MFL
LShD
Astral Stalker
Fill in to 10 acts
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1886 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/24/2008 11:06 AM |
| MF lich
sheild guardian
UH delver
drider x2
Fodder of choice x2
It's weak against tomebound but conceal helps and when your confusion hits it's save ends. You get 30 autodmgout of driders + guardian (are driders arcane?).
Against tomebound I like
db defender x4
dwarfbattlmaster
rikka
Merch guard
farmer x2
Can't get em all and it takes all 3skullcleaves that come with the tomebound to kill a single defender with the warlord as back up Tomebound recharges unbreakable too. Rikka gives the tomebound a headache as she can get to him without fear of confusion with the combo of waylay and flight. Then there's the 4 auto Dmg lines and things get bloodied and the defenders get extra swings. Fun. Take em down! | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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pana1999yote
Skirmisher
18 Posts
| | 07/26/2008 7:26 AM |
| I like the MFL + Delver Sergeant + 2 main pieces warband core.  I had also been thinking about MFL + Delver Sergeant + Astral Stalker x2, but the damage output seemed very low even though the control could be pretty high despite the "nearest" range attacks.
So I tried this last Wednesday, and went 0-2. Both games were "close", but still losses. I played:
Mind Flayer Lich
Caller in Darkness
Umber Hulk Delver
Shadow
Delver Sergeant
Darkmantle
Ravenous Dire Rat x3
9 acts, 199 points
Map: Broken Demongate Loss #1 on Flooded Ruins:
Runecarved Eidolon
Mercenary General
Elf Conjurer
Raistlin Majere
Tiefling Cleric
Elf Archer x5 (1 is cohort)
Goblin Runner
11 acts, 200 points
Winning init would have allowed me to auto-kill the bloodied Eidolon with the CiD, but losing init prevented that and resulted in a big points-swing. Loss #2 on Broken Demongate:
Hierophant of the Seventh Wind
Galeb Duhr
Large Ice Elemental x2
Ice Mephit x2
Deathjump Spider
Hellwasp
Ravenous Dire Rat x2
10 acts, 200 points
Hitting his HOTSW with a confused Ice Elemental would have won the game. Missed the AC by 1, and time runs out.
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 07/26/2008 4:51 PM |
| | I think MFL's have been eclipsed by the Tomebound.  It's a sturdier figure with amazing commander effects and a powerful attack, but it doesn't have the right support in faction.  TBA has stuff that works much better for what it wants to do despite being a slightly weaker fig.   Someone may be able to do ok with them at the championships but will be fighting uphill the whole time. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1886 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/26/2008 10:17 PM |
| | the truely sad part is that the MFL likely didn't get a sight att since itcould kill with pits... After pit errata it would be a top 5 piece with a sight att. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3844 Posts
USA
| | 07/27/2008 4:01 AM |
| Posted By bshugg on 07/26/2008 4:51 PM
Someone may be able to do ok with them at the championships but will be fighting uphill the whole time.
Are you saying some of the maps have a distinct slope to them?Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
248 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 07/28/2008 3:57 AM |
| i used a dual mind flayer lich warband two weeks ago in a constructed warband and came 1st.
I was running:
Mind Flayer Lich x2
Large Black Dagon
BoneShard Skeleton x3
Orc Zombie
Ravenous Dire Rat
Beat an efreetie flamestrider warband, a wulfgar with skull cleave x 2 + oni warband and a couple of others. | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3231 Posts
Netherlands
| | 07/28/2008 4:04 AM |
| I recently played the classic MFL+2Umber Hulks quite effectively against the new Fire Giant Raider twice. Eyes on me? Burrow and reach 2, baby! Keep the MFL back for ranged attacks only. Kill everything else and ignore the Fire Giant. Worked like a charm, great wb for point denial.
Not sure how it would do against skullcleaves though.
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1886 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/28/2008 3:36 PM |
| My qualifier band was
MFL
UH delver x2
Rot scarab
Delver segt
Dj spider x2
Boneshard
Now the Boneshard becomes 2 rats but it is still a fun band... Confuse and swing away! | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
248 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 07/30/2008 9:37 AM |
| mind flayer lich x2 owns skullcleaves and onis hehe
confused skullcleave rolls a 20 attacking its skullcleave ally and kills it.
the confused skullcleave then gets attacked by its confused oni ally who also rolls a 20:)
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1886 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/30/2008 5:10 PM |
| | so can MFL beat skullcleave + TBA enough? Mounted BL is down in the meta now and that is the thing they struggled most with... If they have a 50/50 shot vs TBA and skullcleaves they could be potent. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3844 Posts
USA
| | 07/31/2008 3:20 AM |
| Posted By MikeyChraal on 07/30/2008 9:37 AM
mind flayer lich x2 owns skullcleaves and onis hehe
confused skullcleave rolls a 20 attacking its skullcleave ally and kills it.
the confused skullcleave then gets attacked by its confused oni ally who also rolls a 20:)
I would not say "owns". The MFL will pound Oni's. But a well run Skullcleave warband would be a challenge to beat. You have to hit them with Deathmind (nearest) before they are on top of you and Bodyguards work very nicely to protect the Skullcleave. Also, the Skullcleave only does 20 damage when attacking its teammate. So I'm not sure how it kills its ally.Â
Also, I might agree that dual MFL is slightly better than it once was with the Dire Rat allowing it to now get to 10 activations in a warabnd.Â
On a side note - the CONFUSION roll has changed per the latest eratta. 1-5 Acts as Dominated, 6-15 Does nothing, 16-20 Controlled by its player.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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The_Duke
Sneak
158 Posts
| | 07/31/2008 7:09 AM |
| Posted By MikeyChraal on 07/30/2008 9:37 AM
mind flayer lich x2 owns skullcleaves and onis hehe
confused skullcleave rolls a 20 attacking its skullcleave ally and kills it.
the confused skullcleave then gets attacked by its confused oni ally who also rolls a 20:)
You can't use Special Powers while confused/dominated, only move and make a basic attack.
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Alfred O. Cloutier -Trading History - BLAULB!
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
248 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 07/31/2008 11:23 AM |
| Posted By The_Duke on 07/31/2008 7:09 AM Posted By MikeyChraal on 07/30/2008 9:37 AM
mind flayer lich x2 owns skullcleaves and onis hehe
confused skullcleave rolls a 20 attacking its skullcleave ally and kills it.
the confused skullcleave then gets attacked by its confused oni ally who also rolls a 20:)
You can't use Special Powers while confused/dominated, only move and make a basic attack.
good job i didnt use any special abilities then.
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
248 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 07/31/2008 11:25 AM |
| Posted By The_Duke on 07/31/2008 7:09 AM Posted By MikeyChraal on 07/30/2008 9:37 AM
mind flayer lich x2 owns skullcleaves and onis hehe
confused skullcleave rolls a 20 attacking its skullcleave ally and kills it.
the confused skullcleave then gets attacked by its confused oni ally who also rolls a 20:)
You can't use Special Powers while confused/dominated, only move and make a basic attack.
it killed its already wounded ally by rolling a 20 (double damage). | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10357 Posts
United States
| | 08/01/2008 4:19 AM |
| Any band can own any other band with the right die rolls.
A much more favorable analysis of how one band does against another is to see what happens when neither band rolls a 1 or a 20. Sometimes when I test, I test using the following rules: "A 20 is a regular hit and a 1 is a 2."
It's not accurate, of course, because some bands depend more on criticals than others, though any band that depends upon criticals isn't one I want to take to a big event. (Excepting, of course, pieces that can make their own criticals.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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dzehir
Skirmisher
3 Posts
| | 08/18/2008 2:41 AM |
| Mind Flayer Lich + Umber Hulk Delver is so fun to play together, I am also lucky to have both, a second umber hulk would be better ofc but i dont have :(
I would like to share my warband preferance also;
Mind Flayer Lich
Umber Hulk Delver
Drow Enforcer x 3
Gelatinous Cube
Shadow Mastif
Ravenous Ghoul
8 activations 200points
Gelatinous Cube starts in a random victory area, its speed is 3 but it still goes in the front and makes the opponent nervous. AC 14 but with invisibility + 80 hitpoint, it can tank and decoy, and if it survives it can use spasm and make your enemies helpless.
Mind Flayer lich does his job as expected, Deathmind hell + dont forget to delete your enemy champions powers if there are dangerous stuff.
Umber hulk burrows and moves, still he is slow, but well you guys already know how fun he is.
Shadow mastif also has conceal 11 it gives -2 will aura to enemies within 6 squares, helping to hit with confusion rolls he also has one stunning attack.
Ravenous ghoul has a special attack of 25 dmg on helpless stunned or staggered enemies and it is only 8 points.
Drow enforcers deal most of the damage, they have high armor and with 3 riposte each i pass through enemies giving attack of opportunities because i want to use every riposte before they get killed hehe. They are a must for range and magic user buggers. archers + wild mage etc
I played with those guys against a warband of eternal blade + wulfgar + warhorse + merchant guard . i can easily beat,
And another eternal blade, champion of dol dorn, (defender combo gets confusing if you have a riposting drow enforcer :D ) pff i could have won. but i just got much too excited in the end. with a few mistakes i lost the match while my opponent got only dol dorn and cyclops left with 20 hp each) | | | |
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lewddruid
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 08/18/2008 12:07 PM |
| I was thinking of getting old pals together again. Â Mind Flayer Lich
Shuluth, Archvillain
I would probably throw in a Shadow Mastiff as both ranged attackers are going against DEF[will].
But here's what I usally use when I want to bring out the MFL.
Mind Flayer Lich(63),
Drow Wand Mage(50),
Drow Spiderguard(26),
Drow Spiderguard(26),
Drow Blademaster(22),
Ravenous Dire Rat(3),
Ravenous Dire Rat(3),
Ravenous Dire Rat(3),
Ravenous Dire Rat(3),
On frostfell Rift of course.
I like the fact that the DWM let's the MFL reroll a few of his deathmind attacks.I was thinking about maybe replacing a spiderguard with a Drider??? | |
What's the matter boy, don't cha like clowns? Don't we make you laugh? | |
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Cottondonkey
Skirmisher
16 Posts
Milton, ON
| | 08/18/2008 5:32 PM |
| i was going to try a
blackroot treant   135
beholder lich          64
beholder lich           64
mind flayer lich       63
boneclaw impaler   71
guardian mummy    32
guardian mummy    32
guardian mummy    32
ravinous dire rat       3
ravinous dire rat        3
total 499 pts
The object is ongoing necrotic/ mummy immobilize
and undead healing
dire rats are for sacrifice to recharge the blackroots power (an idea I got from someone elses team somewhere in these forums, but it was with a deathpriest of orcus, in place I decided to use the mind flayer lich) | | | |
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dzehir
Skirmisher
3 Posts
| | 08/19/2008 11:31 AM |
| In frostfell rift we can slide enemies into pits, right?
And can we make them jump into pits if we use them by confusion?
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