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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
    
 | | 03/20/2005 2:18 PM |
| | recovered topic 1039 | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 2:18 PM |
| I'd say construction looks pretty good. I've used similar bands (focusing on the MFT) with a measure of success. Keep in mind, though, that I don't play tournaments and the shop that DOES hold DDM games holds them at times when I have to be at work--so my experience pool is rather, uh, "limited".
However, you said "any," so I'm going to take the opportunity.[:)]
One thing that's likely to cause problems is the Mindflayer. In order to get the biggest "bang" for his buck, you need him to be upfront with your Executioners and Bladebearers. He's not the toughest commander out there, so you'll have to exercise care to really get the most out of him.
Once the MFT drops his Scream, get him into the mix. Not necessarily as a combatant (although that Rend is nice, and he's not bad against filler), but try to keep his Stun cone firing (if you can manage to not hit your own troops). It's bound to get some your opponent's figs, and if you get lucky you might Stun one of your opponent's commanders (which can put some of his models out of command--Key for a band focused on Executioner's Blade).
Don't be so concerned about getting the Executioners into combat before the Scream goes off. With only 1 attack each, it's not so critical that they be based prior to the Scream going off. In fact, if you can set up your charges beforehand, you'll add a further +2 to their attack rolls. However, try your best to get the Bladebearers into things first (preferably against heavies that have already taken their actions). You'll really miss that 2nd attack if they have to Rush or Charge.
Also, don't be so focused on keeping the Thayan in the rear with the gear. She's a solid piece, and can do wonders for your warband. Once the Psychic Scream goes off, get her moving! The MFT has done its job, and it's time for the Thayan to do the rest of hers. Her bonus to saves is excellent, and her AC is nice. While her damage is mediocre, her HP and AC will keep her going for some time. It's very likely you'll need her to distract a heavy or a key piece of your opponent's warband (Thayans are excellent against Gauths!).
I'm a little puzzled by your attitude towards fodder. With a band like this (gaining massive bonuses to damage for a round), you want to do your best to ignore the fodder altogether if you can. In fact, I'd suggest using the Mindflayers to clear the fodder out. Those Stun cones are well suited to stalling massive amounts of fodder, and your Mindflayer's aren't going to stand up to HEBIs, Orc Champions, Ogre Ravagers, or much else of anything. The somewhat lackluster AC and low damage output of the Mindflayers are exactly what you should be using. Fodder will sometimes miss your figs, and you won't have to cause massive damage to kill/route them.
It's a huge waste to swing into combat with a Human Exectioner and have it land on a Orc Warrior. You've just dished out 15-20(?) HP of damage against a creature than can only handle 5. Imagine if that were a Critical hit! | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 4:16 PM |
| Okay, I just played the warband twice against CG bands and lost both times. My conclusions are:
1. Drizzt is ungodly
2. Mind flayers suck
The first game was a standard format. My opponent was a CG warband composed of Drizzt, Moon Elf Fighter, Evermeet Wizard, and Halfling Ranger. For the best part of the game, I was stuck fighting in a 10x10 corridor, meaning that most of my warband was unable to do anything (going around to reach the opponents' back would have taken too long). The MFT's scream was pretty much useless, seeing as how Drizzt and Moon Elf were in the front line, and both are unaffected. Furthermore, I couldn't use the mind blast because I had to avoid hitting my front-line units (Thayan and Urthok). The one time I did use it, both Drizzt and the Moon Elf failed... but so did my Thayan and Urthok. My opponent didn't lose ANY units.
The second game was a Dragon's Hoard scenario, against a CG (Drizzt, Moon Elf, Evermeet, Healer, Aramil). This game was closer, but I couldn't get to the Healer and neutralize her, and she kept healing Drizzt, who in turn kept waltzing around my units. Also, I only managed to collect two (!) treasures, while my opponent had no problem collecting five with Drizzt (and he could have easily collected seven if he had focused on it). | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 7:17 PM |
| | I tried a MFT/Bladebearer/Urthok band, and got horribly mauled. My general observation was that the bladebearers are just to fragile to go up against orc champions and LRDs. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 7:17 PM |
| Sounds like your main problem is getting drawn in to fight in a bad spot instead of fighting where you want to (in a large open area so you can use those stun cones and then gang up on the enemy).
Mind Flayers do NOT suck -- they're among my favorite pieces. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 10:23 PM |
| Frist, Driz'zt IS ungodly. He's a powerhouse.
Second, Mind Flayers do not suck ... at least not when given a good set of bodyguards and a well-rounded and yet focused build.
What I mean by this is this build, whereas fun, is highly dependent on things being out of command and things not wanting to take the AoOs to base your Mind Flayers.
Two Mindflayers are, most likely, overkill and unnecessary. One is good, two is a bit of a squishy liability. If you're going to run two you need to run a solid wall of blockers so folks can't easily run through your guys taking the AoOs to base and then kill your flayers. More activiations could help, but so also could blockers with more staying power. And, given the nature of the stun cone, blockers who are immune to stun would be nice as well. Constructs and undead do nicely here ... Dread Guard being a favorite construct as they also take a boat-load of damage before they drop, have decent immunities/resistances and do 10 damage when they connect. They are pricey and if you need to just fill things out replace those hobgoblins with some sort of undead instead.
But really, I'd drop to one 'Flayer ... which one is up to you. The commander is a commander, gives folks a penalty to morale saves. The other has the psychic scream. I'd probably drop the commander (more on why later).
I'd also can the Human Executioner. You've got too much of your band tied up on the executioner's-blade like abilities ... and hyper-specializing is never a good thing. For one point more you can get the highly-efficient Bugbear Footpad. He's got more HP and will jump to +14(10 magic) when near Urthok. When he flanks, he gets the sneak damage as well.
By dropping one of the Mind Flayers (and again, I'd drop the commander one) you'd have enough room for another Bugbear Footpad and Snig as well if you dropped the two hobgoblins. You should have enough points left over to throw in either something undead like a Zombie or another Goblin Skirmisher. If you were playing Assault or Triad at this point I'd tell you to include a Mongrelfolk. Snig is a passable second commander and will give you lots of activations ... helping you setup for those Bladebearer multiple-attacks, sneaks from the Footpads and the MFT's stun cone and scream. The skirmishers aren't immune to stun, but really for your intents and purposes you can use them to block and if they HAPPEN to get stunned, no sweat.
You'd end up with ALOT of activations and threats all-around. Plus, and I think this is more important, every hitter in your group isn't tailor-made to only work when someone is out of command and routing. The Bladebearers are already going to be good near Urthok ... the Footpads jump to +14(10 magic) as I said above and the lowly skirmishers go something crazy like +6(10) if they are near both Urthok and Snig. Mind you, don't cluster your folks ... but if you're within a reasonable distance of being able to collapse in and do that AND you've got initiative and activation control then your opponent will have to consider the possible Snig-swarm when he's moving. Any time you make your opponent move based on a threat you possess you have the initiative, regardless of what the dice look like.
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The other route to take would be the less-goblin, more traditional mind-flayer blockers route. If you were to do this I'd suggest instead of the Bugbear footpads you add in a Dread Guard. Decide whether or not you want a secondary commander; if so consider the new Grim Necromancer. He's going to give undead the same to-hit boost that Urthok gives to Goblins, giving you a respectable to-hit in every zone. Plus he could summon a Cursed Spirit, giving you something to put smack in the middle of your stun cones and do bad things to everyone's saves. The other 9 points you could get a Wolf Skeleton.
The Hobgoblins should probably come out in any case for either Goblin Skirmishers or undead. For the same cost as a Goblin Skirmisher you get a guy with 10 hit points ... who if he's hit with a 5 point hit and is standing right beside Urthok is probably going to rout anyway. Using a skirmisher gives you someone with a ranged-6 attack which on the surface may not seem like much but it can be a nice little threat. If you used undead for filler/blockers the Grim Necro is going to give you a nice to-hit bonus ... and they would be fearless and NEVER rout ... and they are immune to stun, etc. etc. etc.
Those are just my thoughts ... for what little they are worth. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/20/2005 11:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Richard II
I tried a MFT/Bladebearer/Urthok band, and got horribly mauled. My general observation was that the bladebearers are just to fragile to go up against orc champions and LRDs.
Whoa, didn't see this before (since it was posted 1 second before mine). I have had the exact opposite result with such a warband -- I have been undefeated with it, even against toughs like Orc Champs and Chuuls.
You just have to know how to pilot it exactly right. There's little room for error. | |
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olrak
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 12:09 AM |
| | Yep, Dread Guards rule as a frontliner. As a construct, it has so MANY immunities. Plus the additional 10 fire immunity really is a good investment. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 1:16 AM |
| I'm sorry to hear about your games, Sammael. I haven't played against Drizzt, so I can't really give you any ideas as how to handle him.
The first game really sounds like you got stuck in a bad place. Positioning is very important with this band. Perhaps moreso than with others. Unfortunately, your opponent chose the where the main battle would take place, and it fit straight into his hands. Against any band without a lot of ranged power, you want to engage in the open. That way you have better angles and routes for moving your figures into attack. You'll also open up support channels to get some of your other figures into flanking positions.
When using this type of band, I've typically held the MFT in reserve with the Thayan until I drop the Scream (usually round 3). Once that happens, the Thayan goes around and makes a nuisance out of herself and the MFT does the same. Since the MFT affects the whole board, it's not critical to have it near your commanders, only in LOS.
The rest of my band typically moves in a loose mob. That allows me to spread out or bear down, as suits my needs. As ChristopherGroves pointed out, that type of movement can be very handy. But you have to watch out for area affects.
Keep trying this band (with tweaks here and there to suit your style). I think you'll like it once you get the hang of it. But, like Kithmaker said, there's very little room for error with this one.
For reference, the band I've used is this, I call it "Where's Apone?":
Urthok the Vicious
Snig the Axe
*Goblin Warriors (x3)
Bladebearer Hobgoblin (x2)
Human Executioner (x2)
Goblin Warrior (x2)
Mind Flayer Telepath
Thayan Knight
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Points=200 Activations=13
It suffers from not having creatures which are immune to the MFT's Stun, but it might give you a place to start if you want to continue to explore the MFT. | |
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Landoy
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 7:33 AM |
| | The only problem in this warband is that the Bladebearers are to much easy to route and that with only Lvl 4 it will surely run, but the fact is Urthok has a commander rating of 5 but its not enough to make the bladebearers stay in the game much longer.... | |
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Landoy
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 7:40 AM |
| You might wanna try
Urthok ( 34 )
2 Bugbear Footpads ( 32 )
2 Bladebearers ( 42 )
thayan knight ( 30 )
snig the Axe ( 20 )
3 Minions
gauth ( 39 )
and another small goblin for the remaining 3 pts..
Basically the technique here is that you let the enemy come to you while the gauth pounds the enemy from a safa distance...so all you have to do is hit and run..... | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 8:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by A Can of the Cave Beer
For reference, the band I've used is this, I call it "Where's Apone?":
Urthok the Vicious
Snig the Axe
*Goblin Warriors (x3)
Bladebearer Hobgoblin (x2)
Human Executioner (x2)
Goblin Warrior (x2)
Mind Flayer Telepath
Thayan Knight
=============================
Points=200 Activations=13
My warband is very close to that, but I opted for 3 Silent Wolf Goblins instead of the 2 Executioners and 2 extra Goblin Warriors. Those Silent Wolf guys are downright NASTY when combined with Urthok's +4 to hit, Snig's +5 damage, and their sneak attack damage when flanking. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 8:00 PM |
| Silent Wolf, eh?
Hmmm. I hadn't considered them before. I can't see (mentally) how they'd stack to the Executioners, but it's certainly something to try.
I like the idea of moving round and getting that sneak attack off. +3, +2, +4 = +7 The attack bonus is a little lower than I'd like, but for base + Snig Bonus + Sneak Attack (twice!)...Well, that's a good amount of damage for LE. And LE definitely needs something with some punch.
Those little guys will probably be sorely underestimated by everyone you face...Which works for me. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/21/2005 8:35 PM |
| Um, +3 +2 +4 = +9, not +7. Also, consider that you may have just stunned the target for another +2 (or -2 AC, however you look at it).
It was pure glee to see the look on my opponent's face when I tore his Orc Champion to shreds in 2 rounds, before he could make a single attack with it (stunned on the first round, then out of command from Psychic Scream, surrounded by 2 Bladebearers and flanked by 2 Silent Wolf Goblins with Snig and Urthok nearby).
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/22/2005 12:22 AM |
| Jeez! I feel like Col. Mustard counting bullets at the end of CLUE.
That's sad.[B)] | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 03/22/2005 1:30 AM |
|
Urthok + snig and friends will give you quite an amount of damage output...this combo is a must when using Urthok, IMHO.
For mind flayer, use body guard that are immune to stun so that you can blast the stun cone thur them while still stay at a relativly safe distance.... and those meatshields still get a +2 bouns to attack those stunned enemy.Thayan is a good choice for that role since he got pretty good safe.
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"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 03/22/2005 4:08 AM |
| Great advice, guys. I've revised the warband to the following (at the moment):
Urthok (34)
Snig + Sniglets (20)
MFT (38)
Thayan (30)
2x Bladebearer (42)
2x Bugbear Footpad (32)
Hobgoblin (3)
I'll give it a try sometime this week, hopefully. | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/23/2005 12:37 AM |
| Are you reall fixed on that lone Hobgoblin Warrior? I know he's got more HP than another Goblin Warrior (or whatever you're using with Snig), but he doesn't get any punch from Snig's Commander Effect.
The odds of the Hobgoblin surviving a successful attack are pretty low, and even if it does survive the chance to rally isn't very good. IMO, you're better off using another small Goblinoid to maximize the damage output.
Good luck with the band, though. May your foes never know what hit them. | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 03/23/2005 2:24 AM |
| | I don't have any additional goblin warriors. :( I suppose I could use a goblin sneak as a proxy or something, but I hate doing that. | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 03/23/2005 5:56 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
How about a Mongrelfolk?
Yep...so that you would not lose out on tile points.
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"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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MGM
Sneak
116 Posts
| | 03/23/2005 9:57 AM |
| I'd like to remember what everyone seems to forget about melee sneak attack rule :
Melee Sneak Attack +[#] : This creature gain the listed bonus on melee damage if it is flanking the defender, or if the defender is stunned, helpless or unable to see the attacking creature
What means if you manage to stun something you don't need to be flanking it to take that sneak bonuses...
About Mind Flayers i think they work well with low cost high save creatures like Sahuagin Rangers, Skullcrush Ogre and High Saves commanders like The Blackguard; because when a dangerous situation emerge you can use mind blast over they to gamble a great advantage or stun who are trying slaughter your commander then run away to a safe position... lets imagine a scenario, 2 Sahuagin Rangers Vs Frenzied Berserkers a breath analise show 30pts vs 52pts - both has save=8, now a mind flayer gamble a cone stun over they, you may assume if one SR fail FB will fail too or everyone will pass(a bad situation because you lost your mind flayer activation), if SR and FB get stunned then you spent 15(sahuagin ranger)+35(Mind Flayer)=50pts to stop 52(Frenzied Berserker), this isn't a great advantage to take risks but if you manage to take something more inside your cone it worth consideration. | |
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