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Epic Toolkit - Complete!
Last Post 12 Jul 2008 05:55 AM by Vrecknidj. 27 Replies.
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sienar
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--
04 Jul 2006 01:14 PM
The Epic Toolkit functions a little differently from the 200 toolkit. Core figures are ones that are nuclei and most useful commanders and support figures. It is not necessary to own all of the pieces of the core to have a solid pool to play from. You could easily pick and choose from the titan-style figures, rather than get them all. You simply can’t run many of them together.

The Extended kit includes figures that fill more of a ‘pick to fill from’ list. Choose figures that you want to include or support the Core figures you are choosing to work with.

This is not to say these are the only figures to play from. 8 activations at 500 points gives an average of 62.5 points per figure as opposed to 25 for 200 point play. You can easily spend 50 or so points on a limited-use figure, even one-shot use, and still have plenty enough points to maintain a strong core to your warband.

This is, of course, purely a guide. It has been created based on empirical data, analytical analysis, and gut instinct. Opinions will differ as to what should be included, how many, and whether they should be core or extended. This is a living document. Changes will happen. Feel free to offer suggestions, via email or posting.

I want to thank my local crew (Felagund, Memphisto, ktatroe), and the other Coloradoans for providing assistance and warband data, as well as the community as a whole for helping come up with this list.

Lawful Good

Core Toolkit

Aasimar Favored Soul (Lawful Good, 20 points, Aberrations, 1)
Cheap access to removing Conceal, and provides a Bless and a Magic Weapon.

Aramil, Adventurer (Lawful Good, 13 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Ray of Enfeeblement on a very cheap figure.

Arcane Ballista (Lawful Good, 48 points, War Drums, 2)
In the format where bigger is better, this guy shines. Large Target Bonus gives a consistent, high attack bonus for, dare I say, large amounts of damage.

Aspect of Bahamut (Lawful Good, 316 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Has the highest commander rating in the game at 8, very high level, fast, high AC, high hp. Has two strong breath weapons. So, why would you not run him? He has two drawbacks, one being somewhat low melee damage output for being well over half of your warband, and very susceptible to Bluespawn Godslayers in multiples. A strong centerpiece for point-denial.

Aspect of Kord (Chaotic Good, 65/208 points, Underdark, 2, brought in by Couatl)
Non-Epic Aspect of Kord works well as a reasonably inexpensive piece that hits accurately and hard. You don’t have to worry about staying in one place with only one attack, and that is good, considering he can only take 2-3 hits. Epic Aspect of Kord has massive damage output, but can be felled quickly. Be sure to use him with high initiative bonuses like Ghaele Eladrin and Ryld Argith to ensure Aggression kicks in so your opponent doesn’t have as much to return damage.

Aspect of Moradin (Lawful Good, 220 points, War Drums, 1)
Survivable commander with good attack bonuses and damage. High level, but large based and ground movement, as well as no Spell Resistance are drawbacks. Best used when supported by the strong buffing that LG provides.

Cleric of Dol Arrah (Lawful Good, 45 points, Angelfire, 1)
Has a very high commander bonus to go along with a useful Special Ability in the Aura of Protection from Evil, along with good enough healing to overcome most attacks, even in Epic.

Cleric of Syreth (Lawful Good, 47 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Has strong spells in Legion’s Shield of Faith and Magic Weapon, combined with a good commander rating, but the commander effect may be where the Cleric of Syreth really shines.

Couatl (Lawful Good, 42 points, Deathknell, 2)
Has one of the best spells in th game in Snake’s Swiftness, combined with fast flying movement. In an arena where damage can exceed 50 per attack, Snake’s Swiftness can really turn a game. Also has one of the more useful commander effects in reducing all elemental damage. Be careful when you combine the Couatl with other commanders, since they don’t take advantage of its commander effect.

Dwarf Artificer (Lawful Good, 21 points, Deathknell, 1)
Very cheap access to Greater Magic Weapon and Legion’s Shield of Faith. Legion’s Shield of Faith will make your opponent reconsider where he attacks with his constructs.

Half-Orc Paladin (Lawful Good, 48 points, Underdark, 1)
In the arena of high-power creatures, the Half-Orc Paladin’s Commander Effect will almost always be useful.

Huge Gold Dragon (Lawful Good, 291 points, Giants of Legend, 1)

Iron Golem (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 61/266 points, Underdark, 3)
Iron Golem is the ultimate in blocking technology. Fearless, immune to most Beholder eye rays, and Spell Resistance All. Good to pair with titan-style commanders. Use multiple Iron Golems to keep your opponent’s hitters off your titan commander. Spellcasters can use them as targets, too. The Epic Iron Golem has the advantage of not having Requires Commander, and with a very high AC and Reinforced instead of DR, is likely to stick around in a fight for a long time.

Justicator (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 48/163 points, Underdark, 2)
The non-Epic Justicator makes for a good unit to chase down support pices, where the Epic version makes for a strong secondary hitter, especially against Chaotic.

Lantern Bearer (Lawful Good, 12 points, Underdark, 1)
Very cheap access to remove Conceal from your opponent.

Large Silver Dragon (Lawful Good, 122 points, Archfiends, 1)
The Large Silver Dragon plays a different role in Epic. Perfect for screening against ranged effects with its high flying speed and level. While the Paralysis breath weapon does nothing to dragons, the DC is still high enough to affect most other figures.

Marut (Lawful Good, 74 points, Underdark, 3)
Great blocking and skirmishing unit. With a single, high attack bonus attack, loses no efficiency when moving and striking. Having a high AC and being a construct makes for a perfect blocking unit.

Mordenkainen the Mage (Any, 269 points, Player Rewards, 1)
Mordenkainen (Epic) fits well in the LE mold, where he can be protected by Iron Golems. Mordenkainen has massive damage output with his spells. At close range, he can use cone of cold, at a distance he has chain lightning and over time he eats away at enemies with Mordenkainen's sword.

Rikka, Angelic Avenger (Chaotic Good, 31/143 points, Underdark, 1, brought in by Couatl)
Non-Epic Rikka does little more than serve as a Victory Point grabber, which she can do really well. Epic Rikka can serve many roles. She can Waylay near your opponent to force them to engage on their side of the map, and can usually survive until your warband can get there to back her up. You can set up on shared victory point locations to keep your opponent off, or just hold back as a classic hitter.

Standardbearer (Lawful Good, 10 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
One of LG’s biggest hindrances is slow commanders. While the Standardbearer is slow, it can always double-move and get close enough to a fight quickly. Currently the only access to Countersong for LG, but Relay Orders is where the Standardbearer is strong. You can keep your commanders further away from the fray, yet still benefit from their commander effects.

Timber Wolf (Any, 5 points, Deathknell, 2)
Cheap, fast Victory-point grabber.

Tordek, Dwarf Champion (Lawful Good, 240 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
His non-Epic version is not strong enough to affect an Epic game much, but the Epic version has all of the tools to make a strong titan: high AC, high hp, high attack bonus, high damage, and useful special abilities; and leaves plenty of room for strong back-up hitters and strong support pieces.

Ulmo Lightbringer (Lawful Good, 77 points, Angelfire, 1)
Mostly a defensive piece. Has high maneuverability and high level combined with Evade Damage to slow down area of effect spells and special abilities.

Warforged Bodyguard (Lawful Good, 32 points, War Drums, 2)
Reliably can take two hits for your main hitters. More with healing available. The ability to keep titans alive is crucial for victory, and with LG’s high AC’s, beign able to shift attacks over to the Bodyguard can be the difference between winning and losing.

Warforged Scout (Lawful Good, 8 points, War Drums, 2)
Has Scout and Hide, which makes the Warforged Scout perfect for setting up for the right Victory Point areas and staying on them.

Extended Toolkit

Combat Medic (Lawful Good, 28 points, War Drums, 1)
Eberk, Adventurer (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good, 16 point, Giants of Legend, 1)
Golden Protector (Lawful Good, 41 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Justice Archon (Lawful Good, 32 points, Angelfire, 2)
Marut (Lawful Good, 191 points, Underdark)
Meepo, Dragonlord (Lawful Good, 31 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Mercenary Sergeant (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 23 points, Underdark, 1)
Mounted Paladin (Lawful Good, 96/226 points, Angelfire/Player Rewards, 2)
Sacred Watcher (Lawful Good, 18 points, War Drums, 3)
Sand Giant (Lawful Good, 79 points, War Drums, 1)
Slaughterstone Eviscerator (Lawful Good, 179 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Sword Archon (Lawful Good, 82 points, Angelfire, 1)
Sword of Heironeous (Lawful Good, 29 points, Harbinger, 1)
Trumpet Archon (Lawful Good, 128 points, Angelfire, 1)
War Weaver (Lawul Good, 33 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Warforged Titan (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 151 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Warpriest of Moradin (Lawful Good, 49 points, War Drums, 1)

Chaotic Good

Core Tooklit

Aasimar Favored Soul (Lawful Good, 20 points, Aberrations, 1)
Cheap access to removing Conceal, and provides a Bless and a Magic Weapon.

Aramil, Adventurer (Lawful Good, 13 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Ray of Enfeeblement on a very cheap figure.

Archmage (Chaotic Good, 98 points, Angelfire, 1-3)
Best used in multiples. Several Mordenkainen’s Swords will really work well on your opponents figures, taking them down quickly – one may not be enough in a timed game. Banishment works well on many figures, and either Melf’s Acid Arrow or Empowered Magic Missile work well to get a figure to a morale check or to finish one off.

Aspect of Kord (Chaotic Good, 65/208 points, Underdark, 2)
Non-Epic Aspect of Kord works well as a reasonably inexpensive piece that hits accurately and hard. You don’t have to worry about staying in one place with only one attack, and that is good, considering he can only take 2-3 hits. Epic Aspect of Kord has massive damage output, but can be felled quickly. Be sure to use him with high initiative bonuses like Ghaele Eladrin and Ryld Argith to ensure Aggression kicks in so your opponent doesn’t have as much to return damage.

Brass Samurai (Chaotic Good, 56 points, War Drums, 1)
Works well with single-attack figures with Melee Reach to maximize the efficiency of gaining Whirlwind Attack.

Crow Shaman (Chaotic Good, 26 points, Aberrations, 2)
Provides an AC boost that stacks with most every other figure and Snake’s Swiftness is one of the best spells available. Maneuverable enough to get near a fight to use them and get away when necessary.

Elf Pyromancer (Chaotic Good, 32 points, Harbinger, 1)
Giving Resist and Protection from Energy in a field where you can expect to see large amounts of elemental damage is well worth the cost of the Pyromancer alone. The Fireball is strong enough to kill or rout many support pieces.

Ghaele Eladrin (Chaotic Good, 124 points, Angelfire, 1)
High commander rating, extremely high maneuverability and good damage are all good to get near a fight to pick off support figures and support your own hitters. Can also use Blindsight to see through Smoke and Gaze Attack to pick off lower level figures.

Griffon Cavalry (Chaotic Good, 63/167points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
The Non-Epic Griffon Cavalry may have a role in picking off support, but the Epic version is where this figure shines. Can do upwards of 100-120 damage on a single charge, which should be easy to set up, given its F8 movement speed. Being fearless ensures it can stick around or take an attack of opportunity and move away with little to fear.

Guenhwyvar (Chaotic Good, 142 points, Player Rewards, 1)
Epic Guen provides options, having Bodyguard and Conceal 11. Use the former to protect your other hitters directly, and the latter to support them indirectly by getting in the way, making your opponent attack Guen. May get a boost when Epic Drizzt is announced.

Inspiring Marshall (Chaotic Good, 29 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Grant Move Action alone is what makes this figure worth including. Being a commander 4 helps that cause. Grant Move Action can be devastating, especially considering Chaotic Good’s tendency to have speed 8 and higher hitters.

Mordenkainen the Mage (Any, 269 points, Player Rewards, 1)
Mordenkainen (Epic) fits well in the LE mold, where he can be protected by Iron Golems. Mordenkainen has massive damage output with his spells. At close range, he can use cone of cold, at a distance he has chain lightning and over time he eats away at enemies with Mordenkainen's sword.

Purple Worm (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 189 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
With Burrow 6, can go nearly anywhere without fear of Attacks of Opportunity. Has two strong attacks, one potentially destroying any figure Medium and smaller, while the other delivers a high DC weaken poison. Best used early as a skirmisher, striking with one of the two attack forms and then fading away.

Rikka, Angelic Avenger (Chaotic Good, 31/143 points, Underdark, 1)
Non-Epic Rikka does little more than serve as a Victory Point grabber, which she can do really well. Epic Rikka can serve many roles. She can Waylay near your opponent to force them to engage on their side of the map, and can usually survive until your warband can get there to back her up. You can set up on shared victory point locations to keep your opponent off, or just hold back as a classic hitter.

Ryld Argith (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 55 points, Aberrations, 1)
Ryld has the highest initiative bonus in the game, along with Aspect of Bahamut, and Ghaele Eladrin, but costs significantly cheaper.

Spellscale Sorcerer (Chaotic Good, points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Spellscale Sorcerer has an array of spells available, including Ray of Enfeeblement and Blur. Where the Sorcerer shines even more is in the Counterspell, which can stop many of the better spells, including Ray of Enfeeblement and Snake’s Switfness.

Timber Wolf (Any, 5 points, Deathknell, 2)
Cheap, fast Victory-point grabber.

War Chanter (Chaotic Good, 30 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
War Chanter has two things it provides for few points, but is very fragile. One of the few sources of Improved Countersong, and boosts saves better than any other figure, save the Orc Wardrummer.

Extended Toolkit

Clay Golem (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 56 points, Archfiends, 2)
Dragon Totem Hero (Chaotic Good, 58/157 points, War Drums, 1)
- Golden Protector (Lawful Good, 142 points, Player Rewards, 2)
- Bluespawn Godslayer (Lawful Evil, 145 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
- Dracolich (Lawful Evil, 256 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
- Huge Gold Dragon (Lawful Good, 291 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
- Huge Red Dragon (Chaotic Eveil, 216 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
- Large Silver Dragon (Lawful Good, 122 points, Archfiends, 1)
- Sorcerer on Black Dragon (Chaotic Evil, 200 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Eberk, Adventurer (Lawful Good/Chaotic Good, 16 point, Giants of Legend, 1)
Elminster of Shadowdale (Chaotic Good, 100/269 points, Underdark, 1)
Evermeet Wizard (Chaotic Good, 39 points, Archfiends, 1)
Greenfang Druid (Chaotic Good, 50 points, Deathknell, 1)
Mephling Pyromancer (Chaotic Good, 38 points, War Drums, 1)
Moon Elf Fighter (Chaotic Good, 49 points, Archfiends, 1)
Nebin, Gnome Illusionist (Chaotic Good, 18 points, Harbinger, 1)
Satyr (Chaotic Good, 15 points, Underdark, 1)
Storm Giant (Chaotic Good, 278 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Voice of Battle (Chaotic Good, 29 points, Aberrations, 1)
Wand Expert (Chaotic Good, 33 points, Angelfire, 1)
Warden of the Wood (Chaotic Good, 46 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)


Lawful Evil

Core Toolkit

Aspect of Tiamat (Lawful Evil, 352 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Has two drawbacks – speed 4 and only leaves 148 points for the other 7 activtions, which will be spent supporting her. Dual-activation goes a long way in countering both of those drawbacks, as does a plethora of breath weapons and a poison attack that cen be attached to any successful attack. The only element that can harm her is Sonic, and spell resistance gives protection against spells.

Beholder (Lawful Evil, 83 points, Deathknell, 2)
Absolutely essential if you plan on running Lord Soth; his hp is low enough that he needs the healing support of the Beholder. Telekinesis is good to manipulate your own troops, and Slow is great at neutering opposing hitters.

Blackguard on Nightmare (Lawful Evil, 68/195 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Tyrannical Morale 6 will really help the Arrogant figures, such as Eldritch Giant and Steel Predator and has the speed to keep up with your hitters, unlike the Human Blackguard. Both versions have the ability to pick off support figures, no matter where they are on the board. With a DC 20, the Weaken cone on the Epic Blackguard has a decent chance against most figures.

Bluespawn Godslayer (Lawful Evil, 145 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
One of the most efficient figures, which only gets better against most Epic bands with Dragon Slayer and Outsider Slayer. Biggest drawback is speed 6 on a Huge base, but Melee Reach 3 counteracts that well.

Dark Moon Monk (Lawful Evil, 15 points, Archfiends, 1)
If you run any hitters without magic damage, then you really want to consider the Dark Moon Monk or Kobold Sorcerer. Cheap access to Magic Weapon. With True Strike, the Dark Moon Monk can support other hitters with a near auto-hit for 5 damage.

Dark Naga (Lawful Evil, 41 points, Underdark, 1)
Good commander to consider if you are running Beholder. +2 DC is very beneficial. Bigby’s Slapping Hands are less useful in Epic than 200, but 20 DC is high enough to be useable.

Diseased Dire Rat (Lawful Evil, 14 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Costs less than one round of victory points and can deny your opponent victory points.

Efreeti (Lawful Evil, 42 points, Angelfire, 2)
Support hitter with low cost, good attack bonus, and decent damage. The Efreeti has ranged fire spells, but these are less than optimal in most situations.

Goblin Skirmisher (Lawful Evil, 3 points, Dragoneye, 3)
Snig’s in the kit, and this little guy is the only real choice for Da Boyz.

Green Dragon (Lawful Evil, 28 points, Aberrations, 1)
Victory point grabber. Pure and simple. Since Victory points are 25 in Epic, Green Dragon is the equivalent of an 11-12 point figure in 200. At 70 hp, will be tough to take out before he scores 50+ points without commitment.

Human Blackguard (Lawful Evil, 46 points, Harbinger, 1)
Commander 6. Tyrannical Morale. High initiative bonus. Your hitters stay on the table, and with just a bit of Aura of Fear, your opponents are less likely so.

Iron Golem (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 61/266 points, Underdark, 3)
Iron Golem is the ultimate in blocking technology. Fearless, immune to most Beholder eye rays, and Spell Resistance All. Good to pair with titan-style commanders. Use multiple Iron Golems to keep your opponent’s hitters off your titan commander. Spellcasters can use them as targets, too. The Epic Iron Golem has the advantage of not having Requires Commander, and with a very high AC and Reinforced instead of DR, is likely to stick around in a fight for a long time.

Justicator (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 48/163 points, Underdark, 2)
Either version of the Justicator has a role in Epic, both as back-up hitters. The non-epic Justicator has a low cost with strong attack bonuses and flight which allows you to place him where you need him. The Epic one has strong damage output, especially against the Chaotic bands.

Kobold Sorcerer (Lawful Evil, 20 points, Aberrations, 1)
See Dark Moon Monk.

Lord Soth (Lawful Evil, 98/244 points, Giants of Legend/Player Rewards, 1)
Lord Soth provides a solid commander bonus, a bit of Aura of Fear, and a nice 30 point radius 4 fire blast that gets around SR. Epic Lord Soth boosts that to 60 damage, which is just devastating. Epic Lord Soth makes for one of the best melee titan commanders, but needs a little help protecting his relatively low hp total.

Mind Flayer (Lawful Evil, 35 points, Harbinger, 1)
Good commander bonus on a cheap commander. Great commander effect, and an unlimited-use Stun cone, good for robbing your opponent of activations.

Mind Flayer Telepath (Lawful Evil, 38 points, Aberrations, 1)
The single-use Psychic Scream, which can negate commander bonuses to morale and rally checks is reason enough to consider this piece. The Stun cone, which can be boosted by the Dark Naga, and robs your opponent of activations, is another reason.

Mordenkainen the Mage (Any, 269 points, Player Rewards, 1)
Mordenkainen (Epic) fits well in the LE mold, where he can be protected by Iron Golems. Mordenkainen has massive damage output with his spells. At close range, he can use cone of cold, at a distance he has chain lightning and over time he eats away at enemies with Mordenkainen's Sword.

Rakshasa (Lawful Evil, 41 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Bigby’s Slapping Hand may be less useful in the realm where saves start pushing 15-20, but still has a place. Being attached to a commander 4 is helpful. The Rakshasa’s ability to steal commander effects can be very helpful.

Shuluth, Archvillain (Lawful Evil, 59/208 points, War Drums, 1)
Non-Epic Shuluth may have a place here, and Epic Shuluth certainly does. He has one of the most powerful commander effects in the game, and at DC 20/24, is rather powerful. As long as you are not continually facing Undead and Constructs, the Mind Blast will take away activations, much like the other Mind Flayers. He's not the first choice for wading into melee, but bringing him into the fray later could spell doom for your opponent.

Snig the Axe (Lawful Evil, 20 points, Archfiends, 1)
Best way to overactivate. Just keep him and the Sniglets far, far away from the fray.

Steel Predator (Lawful Evil, 94 points, Angelfire, 2)
Very fast, and with 40 Swift sonic damage, the Steel Pradator can be devastating, especially when used in multiples. Pounce makes his low damage output go farther. Will punish those who use a large amount of support figures.

Timber Wolf (Any, 5 points, Deathknell, 2)
Cheap, fast Victory-point grabber.

War Troll (Lawful Evil, 69/202 points, War Drums, 2)
Non-Epic War Troll makes for a decent mid-range support hitter. Has a high attack bonus, but wants for Magic Weapon. Epic War Troll has a high AC and high attack bonus. The ranged attacks can force your opponent to come to you with some precision shooting. One DC 25 stunning attack will usually take away an activation from your opponent.

Witchknife (Lawful Evil, 33 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Primary purpose is to slow down enemy spellcasters. At 33 points, can be used in pairs to ensure Spell Silencer sticks around. Any attack on the Witchknife to stop the Spell Silencer is an attack not on your hitters. DC 18 on the Greater Command is enough to stop a few of your opponents’ figures, especially if they are loaded on one type.

Extended Kit

Aspect of Bane (Lawful Evil, 106 points, Archfiends, 1)
Accurate hitter with typical low LE damage output. Aura of Fear 8 is simply amazing. Being an outsider makes him somewhat susceptible to Banish/Dismissal, but at level 14, this is unlikely.
Aspect of Nerull (Lawful Evil, 81/210 points, Deathknell/Player Rewards, 1)
Aspect of Hextor (Lawful Evil, 75/234 points, War Drums, 1)
Death Knight (Lawful Evil, 80 points, Deathknell, 1)
Dracolich (Lawful Evil, 256 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Duergar Champion (Lawful Evil, 33 points, Underdark, 2)
Eldritch Giant (Lawful Evil, 236 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Gauth (Lawful Evil, 39 points, Archfiends, 1)
Primary attack mode of the much-maligned Fire element. Low DC’s, but can be boosted by Dark Naga. Even at 10-25% fail chance of the Paralysis and Stun saves, your opponent is more likely to play a little more cautiously.
Half-elf Hexblade (Lawful Evil, 33 points, Aberrations, 1)
Helmed Horror (Lawful Evil, 45 points, Underdark, 2)
Khumat (Lawful Evil, 51 points, War Drums, 1)
King Snurre (Lawful Evil, 165 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
- Fomorian (Chaotic Evil, 119 points, Giants of Legend, 2)
- Hill Giant Barbarian (Chaotic Evil, 78 points, War Drums, 2)
- Tundra Scout (Chaotic Evil, 166 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Large Green Dragon (Lawful Evil, 51 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
Mercenary Sergeant (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 23 points, Underdark, 1)
Night Hag (Lawful Evil, 43 points, War Drums, 1)
Orog Warlord (Lawful Evil, 71 points, Angelfire, 1)
- Orcs (various)
Thaskor (Lawful Evil, 86 points, Deathknell, 2)
Troglodyte Captain (Lawful Evil, 53 points, Underdark, 1)
- Troglodytes (Chaotic Evil, various, 2)
Urthok the Vicious (Lawful Evil, 34 points, Dragoneye, 1)
Warforged Titan (Lawful Good/Lawful Evil, 151 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Warpriest of Hextor (Lawful Evil, 52 points, Deathknell, 1)
Wolf Skeleton (Lawful Evil/Chaotic Evil, 9 points, Harbinger, 2)
Zakya Rakshasa (Lawful Evil, 36 points, War Drums, 2)

Chaotic Evil

Core Toolkit

Balor (Chaotic Evil, 95/326 points, Underdark, 1)
Non-Epic Balor makes a very solid support hitter. With Flight and Enslave, he can pick off weak support or steal slightly stronger support. Epic Balor provides for a strong, accurate titan commander. With Cleave, can keep your opponent from swarming him.

Cleric of Gruumsh (Chaotic Evil, 21 points, Harbinger, 1)
The Cleric of Gruumsh is a very cheap source of Cleave that also provides a decent back-up commander bonus.

Cursed Spirit (Chaotic Evil, 11 points, Archfiends, 2)
Multi-purpose cheap filler. Can go for Victory Points, run interference, or apply Curse Aura. Has the chance of surviving most any hit since it is Incorporal.

Death Slaad (Chaotic Evil, 53/202 points, Underdark, 1)
The Non-Epic Death Slaad can be played in a role much like the Non-Epic Balor. That is, going after support and cheap commanders. With the Chaos Hammer, can eliminate low-hp support of Lawful bands, especially Good, which has a tendency to have low-hp support. The Epic Death Slaad needs his Conceal 11 to work in order for him to succeed. With Fireball and Chaos Hammer, he can direct the field, and with Power Word Kill can immediately eliminate any figure that starts at 60 hp or less or can finish one that has been reduced to 60 hp by his support hitters without having to attack.

Eye of Gruumsh (Chaotic Evil, 44 points, Dragoneye, 1)
Has a high enough attack bonus and speed to either go after support or aid the bigger hitters in working on your opponent’s hitters.

Fomorian (Chaotic Evil, 119 points, Giants of Legend, 3)
The Fomorian is reasonably fast and hits very hard with Melee Reach 3. Can be very devastating in a group.

Huge Red Dragon (Chaotic Evil, 216 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Aura of Fear, good damage, high speed, with a potentially devastating breath weapon. Suffers from a relatively low attack bonus, especially on the secondary and tertiary attacks.

Mountain Troll (Chaotic Evil, 173 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Similar to the Fomorian, with more survivability and Stunning Attacks for a few more points.

Nightwalker (Chaotic Evil, 393 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
The only real drawback to the Nightwalker is that he costs so much of your warband total, it is hard to support him properly. Has strong spells, strong attack bonuses, good damage, and a very high AC.

Orc Druid (Chaotic Evil, 27 points, Dragoneye, 2)
Cheap access to Snake’s Swiftness.

Orc Wardrummer (Chaotic Evil, 19 points, War Drums, 2)
Two of the three Drumbeats affect the entire board, regardless of positioning, the Resistance Drumbeat and Intimidating Drumbeat. Cheap enough that you could include two to give constant Drumbeats of both of those, or bring one close to the fray and apply Countersong.

Purple Worm (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 189 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 1)
With Burrow 6, can go nearly anywhere without fear of Attacks of Opportunity. Has two strong attacks, one potentially destroying any figure Medium and smaller, while the other delivers a high DC weaken poison. Well used as a skirmisher, striking with one of the two attack forms and then fading away.

Ryld Argith (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 55 points, Aberrations, 1)
Ryld has the highest initiative bonus in the game.

Swarm of Spiders (Chaotic Evil, 15 points, War Drums, 2)
Swarm of Spiders is susceptible to spells, and being a Wandering Monster can be inconvenient, but it can really slow down the advance of your opponent’s hitters.

Tiefling Blademaster (Chaotic Evil, 27 points, War Drums, 1)
The Tiefling Captain shines when you can roll 19-20’s. The Tiefling Blademaster provides a more consistent, albeit variable, Commander Effect.

Tiefling Captain (Chaotic Evil, 21 points, Harbinger, 1)
Cheap access to Commander 4, with a strong Commander Effect.

Timber Wolf (Any, 5 points, Deathknell, 2)
Cheap, fast Victory-point grabber.

Witchknife (Lawful Evil, 33 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Primary purpose is to slow down enemy spellcasters. At 33 points, can be used in pairs to ensure Spell Silencer sticks around. Any attack on the Witchknife to stop the Spell Silencer is an attack n ot on your hitters. DC 18 on the Greater Command is enough to stop a few of your opponents figures, especially if they are loaded on one type.

Extended Kit
Clay Golem (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Evil, 56 points, Archfiends, 2)
Gnoll Sergeant (Chaotic Evil, 33 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Hezrou (Chaotic Evil, 80 points, Angelfire, 1)
Hill Giant Barbarian (Chaotic Evil, 78 points, War Drums, 2)
Hill Giant Chieftain, (Chaotic Evil, 95 points, War Drums, 1)
Huge Fiendish Spider (Chaotic Evil, 142 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Large Red Dragon (Chaotic Evil, 83 points, Dragoneye, 1)
Lich Necromancer (Chaotic Evil, 64 points, Giants of Legend, 1)
Orc Champion (Chaotic Evil, 39 points, Archfiends, 1)
Tundra Scout (Chaotic Evil, 166 points, War of the Dragon Queen, 2)
Wolf Skeleton (Lawful Evil/Chaotic Evil, 9 points, Harbinger, 1)
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04 Jul 2006 04:16 PM
I agree with most of the list, though admittedly I can only fairly evaluate CG's for lack of experience with other factions. The Aasimar Favored Soul was a good choice, I strongly agree with it. Likewise the Epic Griffon Cavalry and Brass Sam Rye were good calls.

While this may not surprise you, I'd like to advocate the inclusion of the Celestial Pegasus in CG's list. 32 points for what it offers in Epic format is incredible. First, it can act as a Victory Area grabber if you need one, though this isn't the best way to use it unless you absolutely have to.

More notably, it's a Speed F10 Large with decent HP and Saves. It's extremely well suited to setting up flanks, hunting support pieces, controlling battlefield flow, and has at least some uses in melee on its own. I wouldn't run more than 1 in Epic, but I think a single Celestial Pegasus has genuine value in CG Epic play.
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doubtofbuddha
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04 Jul 2006 05:04 PM
Was the lack of the Aspect of Kord in the LG toolkit an ommission or deliberate?
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robbdaman
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04 Jul 2006 05:39 PM
Well you knew I'd put my thoughts in on a few things so... :-P Anyway for the most part there's only a few things I think I would change.

Aspect of Kord in LG is obviously an oversight. In addition I'd place the Mounted Paladin, specifically the epic version on core for LG. It has the second highest attack bonuses in the game (tied with Purple Worm). I've taken down a Nightwalker with one so I know he's solid. Beyond that in LG I think it seems like a good list. The Large Bronze Dragon might make extended but it's more situational and very iffy.

For CG I'd place the Warden of the Wood lower, as there's not many animals for epic that can take advantage of her CFX. I'd find more use out of the Greenfang with all the Magical Beasts he can bring in. Plus I'd place the Dragon Totem Hero higher just because of the crazy amount of Warband Building options he has. I agree with PK that the Celestial Pegasus needs adding and even the Medium Air Elemental for tile grabbing. I also still argue that the Centaur Hero is more playable in epic but that could be situational. I've used it to a mean success as well though.

I think in LE the only one I'd add is the Cadaver Collector. It's big and tough enough to dish out some nice damage. I'd at least add it to Extended. Plus I like using the Red Wizard for it's Warband Building. Bringing in Nightwalker, Glabrezu and Sorcerer on Black Dragon.

In CE I would definately add Bugbear Champ, Drow Cleric of Lolth and Drow Wizard for their magic weapon casting. The best beaters for CE don't do magic damage and could use the magic weapon to help to his as well. Glabrezu still is a beast to me too.

Some of the numbers on things are still variable to what you might want to play but that's just how it is. In general as you stated before err on the side of the most likely instead of telling someone to use 5 Beholders or 4 Archmages. Good job on it all.

R~
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04 Jul 2006 06:38 PM
I can really only speak from CG's perspective on things, but I strongly agree with rob and say that the Centaur Hero should at least be on the extended list. His cost isn't so bad in epic and +16/+11 for 15 damage ranged attacks with Precise shot are not very bad. Comebine him with the Ghaele Eladrin and the Crow Shaman and his ranged attacks are starting to get up there. `

Also, I think that perhaps the Frenzied Berserkers can play a role in epic. +14/+9 is ok, and with some spells that can be boosted. you should at least have a shot at hitting with the first attack.
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04 Jul 2006 06:55 PM
greyhaze where are you!?!? as the prez of warduke club+1 of the fan demand warduke be put back on the list!!!

warduke could take out most of these with a blink of an eye and a hex on their dice
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nycfarmkid
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04 Jul 2006 07:45 PM
I forgot to mention this before, but thanks for all the work you've put in Seinar. this will help all of us as we make a transition from 200 point to 500 points for a lot of our games.

Also, might want to add Mialee to the list for CG. 6 points for magic weapon is useful.
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04 Jul 2006 11:24 PM
Baaz Draconian ... I'm almost ready to put it in 200 but I think it is fabulous in the right 500 environments.

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sienar
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05 Jul 2006 02:05 AM
Aspect of Kord is most certainly an omission. I will add.

Let's see if I can comment on all at the same time.

LG

Mounted Paladin - I should probably add to Extended. He can be good - we've been testing him a bit. Shows to be tough to run, though.

CG

Mialee - most CG beaters already have magic damage. You're getting good value in +1 attack and a Magic Missile, but I'm just not sure she's necessary. I'll keep her in mind if more people think she needs to be added

Centaur Hero - This is one of those figures that makes the Epic Kit hard, to me. He can be used to good use, and I don't meant to say he can't be put to good use, but I'm not ready to recommend people to go out and get any.

Frenzied Beserker - see Centaur Hero.

Warden of the Wood - I'm probably hot on this figure due to what she did at the prerelease. Probably better as Extended - it will just depend on how many Purple Worms and Tiamats you expect to face.


Dragon Totem Hero - right now I see him as gimmicky. He may prove to be good. he may prove to be not quite enough. Until I see proof one way or the other, I'm sticking to Extended. If War of the Dragon Queen doesn't make him work, he'll fall off Extended quick.

Celestial Pegasus - See Centaur Hero.

Medium Air Elemental - I don't see speed F14 much better than speed 10. 18 points pushes the boundary of what I would recommend fort just a victory point grabber.

LE

Cadaver Collector - I want to like this guy, but I just feel he's going to drop like a sack of potatoes when the fighting gets intense. At his point cost, I'm having a hard time seeing a home for him. I'l think on adding to Extended.

Red Wizard - Might have a use (and has seen plenty of use in the past), but I'm just not seeing adding him to even Extended at this point. Those of us around here that are LE fans haven't run him in some time.

CE

Glabrezu - I've been down on him since about Archfiends. His damage output is very low, especially for being over half your warband. He'll do ok if your opponent doesn't have Blindfight or Blindsight. If I see him show up in a tournament report doing well, I'll consider it.

Bugbear Champion of Erythnul, Drow Cleric of Lolth, and Drow Wizard - I struggle with these three - I want to add one for as source of Magic Weapon. I can't remember the last time I've seen any run, even with Fomorian bands... I hate to add all three - you really only need one. Which one of these would you guys run?
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sienar
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05 Jul 2006 02:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves

Baaz Draconian ... I'm almost ready to put it in 200 but I think it is fabulous in the right 500 environments.

Ready-made statue that makes it so you can't park your large/huge base where you want? Right on!



Missed the last couple - Baaz Draconian feels more like personal preference than Core or Extended. I feel like I need to see the trick happen somewhat regularly to want to include it. I like the trick - I just don't know quite how often it will happen.

Warduke - I really want to like Warduke. I even included him as Core in m first draft. I think he has a home - I just haven't seen it yet. You Warduke lovers go out there and win some for him and I will galdy add him back in to the kit.

I don't mind doing this at all. I hope people get some use out of it. Please don't think these are the only figures that I think can succeed in Epic. These are the ones I think people should have readily available to them - I fully expect to see Frenzied Beserkers do well - I just don't know that I want to recommend to always have them a your fingertips.
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warchanter
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Italy

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05 Jul 2006 03:59 AM
CG mordenkainen has LE reference
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robbdaman
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05 Jul 2006 04:44 AM
Honestly with DR 10 now in existance CE is going to want the magic weapon more than ever. Look at all the epic level creatures that do and don't have magic damage naturally. Everything hitting for 10 less damage against Blue Barney is problematic. The Bugbear Champ is probably the most effective of the three listed because of his 4 castings he can use for magic weapon and his CFX. Drow Cleric stands as a reasonably costed commander in epic and is the only CR:5 CE commander in the game at this time so that's worth something too. Drow Wizard is the cheapest of the three and also the most ineffective.

R~
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wildger
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17 Jul 2006 12:13 PM
bumped

kykp
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17 Jul 2006 04:17 PM
I Would have to add Mounted Drow Patrol for CE. What's a better tile grabber in 500??? You can get Your VPS and attack as well :)

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17 Jul 2006 08:15 PM
For either Good factions Mialee can be an important addition. It is true that most hitters already have magic damage but if they don't their is no cheaper way to get it and at her price using it isn't even a real cost unlike some more costly sources of MW.

In LE where are the KOBOLD MINERS? They may die like flies in epic but "wasting" an attack on one is even worse than in 200pt games. When they start on a VP area they've more than paid for themselves in the first turn.

With the Spider Swarm in CE I'd also consider adding the Ochre Jelly as a possible random VP scorer for the evil factions. It is more vulnerable to physical attack than the SS but 70 fearless hp have it stay around longer after getting caught in area/magic effects.

I'd also recommend including a MW source for CE. Several of the listed hitters would definitely benefit from having Magic Weapon, some for the improved damage vs DR and a few for just the attack improvement. The Bugbear may be the most useful but the others have uses as well.

nycfarmkid
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18 Jul 2006 10:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody Important

For either Good factions Mialee can be an important addition. It is true that most hitters already have magic damage but if they don't their is no cheaper way to get it and at her price using it isn't even a real cost unlike some more costly sources of MW.



I personally think mialee combines well with the Storm giant. Sometimes its hard to get another source of MW into a band.
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19 Jul 2006 03:35 PM
I have to echo the call for the Centaur Hero, in core.

The reason is his point cost, he hits the sweet spot cost wise, and is analogous to a Duergar Champion in 200. If you are running a Quad or Trip build as opposed to a Titan setup it is probobly better to run the Hero as opposed to a second Kord. With +5 HP he can frequently take an extra hit. His ranged ability at his attack bonus means he is never a wasted activation. The +5 HP is worth the -1 in Save. He also has the benefit of fitting into more types of warbands than his contemporaries due to his generalization.

I think the role of VP grabber in CG should go to something other than the ubiquitous T-wolf. Both the Pegasus and the Longstrider fill that bill better with survivability. At the very least the Wild Elf Raider has Bold albeit at lower HP. Medium AstraL Construct is a stronger choice as well. The T-wolf is disqualified in the absence of a commander with Beastmaster. As Fear effects are to easy to come by in a 500format. This may be more personal preference however. While 30+ points is a great deal to spend on VP it is lessened by the per round score value. I am not sure that maximising cost commitment to score ratios is the best methodology in Epic. I'd rather be confident in scoring at least twice, in my experience the Wolf fails there.

For Magic Weapon in CE my choice would be the Bugbear Champ. He gains multiple castings, is cheap, and gains the Fear spells that will gut enemy VP. His CFX is guaranteed useful in any beater band.

The Warduke should at least be considered for extended. His non-Epic version is a strong secondary hitter/cleanup option to tackle weenies. He has definate synergy with the Balor on at least one activation. His Epic version still suffers from the speed defecit.

I completely understand your reservations about Warduke, but as ACs in Epic are much higher he provides the attack bonus most of the faction lacks.

I actually much prefer the inclusion of the Favored Soul over the other Magic Weapon sources. In Epic he loses his "Points on a stick" Handicap by not really being worth much. He also offers Bless which is a big help when tackling an AC 29 opponent. Illuminator is just icing on the cake.

Thank You, for putting the work in on this.
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sienar
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24 Jul 2006 02:15 PM
I implemented many of these changes, but my changes were blown out when the site was reset a few weeks ago and a bunch of posts were lost. I was too frustrated to redo them.

At this point, I don't plan on maintaining this in two sites, and you should expect to see it up at Hordelings soon (which really has been my home since before I started coming to Maxminis). I will post a link to it so you can see it and further discuss.

If somebody wants to maintain an Epic toolkit on Maxminis, they are more than welcome to, and can even use what I have created as a framework, but if you do take from mine, just reference me.
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14 Aug 2006 06:15 PM

[QUOTE]sienar wrote
Aspect of Kord is most certainly an omission. I will add.[/QUOTE]

Nitpick: You copy-pasted the same AoK description into both CG and LG. However, in LG, the Ghaele Eladrin and Ryld Argith are unavailable. I suggest you replace with "Sword of Heironeous", "Cleric of Dol Arrah", or for non-epic Kord, "Bahamut".

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DNDBEAST93
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OH

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15 Aug 2006 07:53 AM
i agree
duergar in the house!

The_Duke
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12 Oct 2006 02:40 PM
"Ghaele Eladrin (Chaotic Good, 124 points, Angelfire, 1)
High commander rating, extremely high maneuverability and good damage are all good to get near a fight to pick off support figures and support your own hitters. Can also use Blindsight to see through Smoke and Gaze Attack to pick off lower level figures."

I don't believe Blindsight allows Ghaele to get LOS through smoke. Blindsight does not specify that it grants LOS through fog or forest or walls.

"Blindsight: This creature can detect enemies by using nonvisual senses. It automatically succeeds on rolls against an enemy creature's Conceal ability. It can also move at normal speed even if it can't see. Attackers this creature can't see do not gain an attack bonus against it. This creature ignores Gaze Attacks, invisibility effects, and the Hide ability"

Also refer to Guy's clarification, which might be applied to fog/smoke: "
Blindsight does not allow a creature to see through forest. The Blindsight glossary definition lists the things that it counters, and neither Forest terrain nor the effects of Forest terrain is not among those things."
Alfred O. Cloutier -Trading History - BLAULB!


galois
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29 Oct 2006 04:45 AM
Find Fog or Smoke in the Rulebook and it says that Blindsight provides LOS through Fog/Smoke.

Ryoga
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Coquimbo - Chile / Italia

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29 Oct 2006 06:07 AM
Yes Blindsight lets Ghaele can shot across the smoke, Hell Spike map is very usable with Blindsight units, like Steel predators, Nightwalker, Warduke and other pieces.
Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board

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15 Nov 2006 10:52 AM
Can anyone tell me where the 200 pt toolkit was moved to?

Thanks

Karl


Lord Namalk
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10 Jun 2007 01:49 PM
What happened to Fire Giant Forgepriest? I ran a couple of em and 3 beholders and they did quite well.
DM

vanrulzz
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¯\(°_o)/¯

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12 Jun 2007 03:53 PM
Posted By Lord Namalk on 06/10/2007 1:49 PM
What happened to Fire Giant Forgepriest? I ran a couple of em and 3 beholders and they did quite well.


this has not been updated for quite a while, probably pre blood war so there is no FGFP in there..

vanrulzz
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¯\(°_o)/¯

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12 Jun 2007 03:59 PM
Posted By karlbalo on 11/15/2006 10:52 AM
Can anyone tell me where the 200 pt toolkit was moved to?

Thanks

Karl

http://hordelings.com/frontend/forums/newsgroup.php?newsgroup=hordelings.ddm.strategy


Vrecknidj
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12 Jul 2008 05:55 AM
I can't really see why this should remain stickied.

Dave
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